After graduating from the University of Mississippi, Erin and Ben Napier married and moved to Erin’s hometown of Laurel, Mississippi. Since then, they’ve been on a dedicated mission to revitalize the town. Erin and Ben walk us through their journey and the changes they’ve made that mean the most to them. We’ll talk about their role in building community and how vital that is to a town’s livelihood. We’ll ask questions about the biggest misconceptions about small towns and hear why Laurel is a place they hope their children would want to grow old in.
After graduating from the University of Mississippi, Erin and Ben Napier married and moved to Erin’s hometown of Laurel, Mississippi. Since then, they’ve been on a dedicated mission to revitalize the town. Erin and Ben walk us through their journey and the changes they’ve made that mean the most to them. We’ll talk about their role in building community and how vital that is to a town’s livelihood. We’ll ask questions about the biggest misconceptions about small towns and hear why Laurel is a place they hope their children would want to grow old in.
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Find episode transcripts here: https://townsizing.simplecast.com/episodes/exploring-laurel-with-ben-and-erin-napier
There’s a romance associated with small towns.
We’ve seen them as the backdrop on TV shows and in movies.
THEME STEMS IN
There’s always fall leaves coating the road.
And the nosy neighbors who somehow know all of your business.
There’s that one bar that everyone hangs out at, where the bartender knows everyone’s order by heart.
And I can tell you that living in a small town is great. But it comes with some caveats.
This is Townsizing, a podcast from HGTV - I’m your host Anne Helen Petersen. I write about culture. I’ve published books on burnout and Hollywood gossip. And you might have read my Substack newsletter Culture Study or seen my byline in the New York Times.
It can be a surprise to some folks that I live in a small town. People wonder… don't you miss having Postmates or like a ramen spot around the corner? Don't you miss going to Ikea whenever you want? [laugh]
But I don't. Ikea is a three hour drive from here. And that includes a boat ride.
[boat horn sfx]
I grew up in a small town. I went to college in a small town. And now I live in a small town… off the coast of Washington…it’s a place called Lummi Island.
[seagulls/beach sfx]
And it’s about 900 people. And even calling it a town is kind of a stretch. There's no mayor, no city council, or even a police force. Just a volunteer fire department. And they come in handy a lot.
Some of the cliches about small town life are definitely true. Everyone does know your name and how much you paid for your house and whether or not they think it was a good deal.
And then there’s this subtle hand movement. Anyone who has lived in a small town knows exactly what I’m talking about here. It’s not quite a wave, it’s 2 fingers lifted off your steering wheel… but you have to do it to every single person that you see whether they’re walking or biking or whatever.
Small town living is simpler.
And I know this life can sound pretty idyllic. But there are drawbacks too.
Like when the ferry goes out and you just realize I’m not leaving the island for a while.
But things like that haven’t deterred me. If anything, it’s made me more curious about people who also choose this life.
So what do we love about small towns? And what are the sacrifices we make to keep our communities strong?
FULL THEME IN
On Townsizing - it’s all about small town living.
Over the course of the next six episodes, we’ll take you to small towns across the U.S. and talk to the people who make them special.
Some names you might know…
Erin Napier: I'm Erin Napier
Ben Napier: Ben Napier
But there will be some new voices too.
We’ll hear the pros of small town living.
30:33 like we do a lot of porch sitting. Yeah. That is one of our favorite pastimes.
And some of the cons.
Plus, we talk to some city people who are wondering--should they make the small town jump? Are they actually ready?
In this show, I talk to some of the people I secretly love to talk to the most. Small town people.
But don’t let the description fool you
Because there’s nothing small about them.
EP INTRO
First up, The Napiers of Laurel, Mississippi. You might know Ben and Erin Napier from their hit HGTV show Home Town, where they help outsiders become Laurel insiders, guiding them through finding the perfect cottage or renovating a classic mid century home. We also follow as they revitalize the town and create a community around their shop, The Mercantile. And I think that’s where we should start the story…
THEME OUT
(MERCANTILE AMBI)
Erin: Mm The mercantile, well, I designed it, so it's, you know, I think I'm too close to it to talk about it objectively, but my intent when designing the The Mercantile was for it to feel. Like you're stepping back in time and
Ben: Just you can be honest. You, you feel like, uh, you feel like, Oh, what's her name? I'm blanking on, uh, the shop around the corner.
Erin: Kathleen Kelly?
Ben: You feel like Kathleen Kelly when you're there
Erin: Yeah, it's enchanting.
Anne: If you missed that, Ben's referring to Kathleen Kelly. The beloved bookstore owner in You've Got Mail.
Erin: Just this amazing smorgasbord for all the senses. You can touch and taste and feel all the things we sell. There's um, This great mix of handcrafted F like our checkout tables are Oak that Ben built. And then we have wallpaper that I designed, but then there's also the original plaster, the original pressed tin on the ceiling. And then all of the, our displays are like antique pieces of furniture, antique bookcases, and on the shelves are all these American made goods.
Anne: you know, I know a lot about the history of Laurel, but I think our, uh, you know, for, for listeners, can you tell us just a little bit about the history that you tell people and how that is just kind of the story that is written on your history too?
Ben: Yeah so Laurel was founded as a lumber town in the late 1800s and at one point it there was more yellow pine. shipped out of Laurel than anywhere else in the world. And all that is gone Now. All the sawmills are gone, everything, uh, from that is gone. But. You had a lot, like Masonite was invented here. Um, and you still have a Masonite factory.
Erin: They were using byproducts of the lumber industry to form new industries.
Ben: And there were all these support industries that formed up which then made it interesting or made Laurel favorable to new industry coming in because they're like, look, you know, they already, they've got railroads, they've got highways. Let's open our, you know, business here. So uh, Laurel is an industrial town. Um, always has
Ben: been there's of manufacturing. That still happens here.
Anne: you know you moved back to Laurel after college How did you get to that decision since you were so eager to leave for college? Um, and what did like the pros and cons list look like for you you when you were trying to make that decision?
Erin: Well when I was in college.
Ben: Jobs here.
Erin: Well, that's not just though. We traveled, I traveled a lot when I was in college and I saw everywhere has problems. Nowhere is perfect you know, I, I thought that living in a, a big city was, was the answer. If art career, that's what I have to do. I have to go there and I will love it. And that's where I'll fit in. And, but, you know, I could live in a place like New York when I finished college and I could live in a 300 square foot apartment with roommates, like, is that my dream really? Or I could go back home to Laurel, where we have all this incredible beauty, a hundred year old live Oaks. These historic houses have a craftsman bungalow 2,500 square feet for $140,000. My mom would be 10 minutes down the road. I could eat supper with my family anytime I wanted, we could have a family, we could have kids they would have access to family. Like I don't know I couldn't think of any cons to going back home.
Anne: Well what about like running into like the guy you had a crush on when you went to the like drug store?
Erin: Yeah you run into people you know but uh it's not always a curse. It eventually can become a blessing
Anne: Yes 100% Um so was it 2008 that you moved back?
Erin: Yes 2008
Anne: And what was the town that you came back to? I mean, 2008 is a pivotal moment in the history of the United States in terms of what was going on in the economy. So I, I just I'd love to hear what it was like
Erin: I think we were blissfully ignorant of the economic situation of the world.
Ben: Yeah I we were, we were
Erin: We were poor because
Ben: of life were in
Erin: we just finished a historic old loft in downtown Laurel where we both had jobs.
Ben: Yeah. And at the time there were like, there were maybe six of us that lived in downtown and two of us were living in downtown because we thought it was cool. And then four, four of the apartments was people living there because
Erin: it's the cheapest place to live
Ben: because there was no one there, like, you know, they were there away from people and, uh,
Ben: It was, it was weird because like there were most, no businesses open.
Erin: Every storefront was empty.
Ben: The only restaurant that was open, close, it was only open for lunch five days a week. That was it nothing, you know, there was a, a coffee shop that open in the morning and that was it. One retail shop.
Erin: a really popular retail shop though.
Ben: It still open.
Erin: It still is very popular.
Ben: And one of those restaurants is still open, open.
Erin: It wasn't completely dead, but it also wasn't completely alive either. And I think that, uh, for us living in these, um, incredible lofts, I mean, you could have been in Soho, these loss that we renovated us and our best friends from college, Jim and Mallory and Josh and Emily, we all lived. Incredible loft departments in downtown that looked like Soho Manhattan. Like,
Ben: On a beautiful fall Saturday morning. If you said at the right spot in the kitchen, you couldn't tell you were in Laurel, it looked like you might be, you know, in Williamsburg in brooklyn or, um,
Erin: you never know. Yeah. So we would start to have these like parties in the park that was downtown and we would invite people and have live music.. you have to basically write the story you want. you can't just wait for someone else to do it for you
Anne: Yeah I find that sometimes people they think that if they move to a small town, there will automatically be all these organizations that they can join. and sometimes there are things that you can join, but sometimes you have to do it yourself like you're talking about
Erin: yeah, you gotta be the ones.
Ben: Um yeah, we formed Laurel main street. and that was the catalyst for the change in downtown Laurel. We started, you know, working on economic restructuring and trying to figure out like, how do we, how do we bring in more business? How do we recruit businesses? How do. Help the businesses that are here, be better at business. At the time it seemed like we would never get to where we were 10 years ago.
Erin: But it was also exciting and it productive and like, we were really making a difference and that really fulfilling and exciting
Anne: Was there any pushback towards some of the revitalization efforts? You know, I think sometimes people, they want change and they want vibrance, but then also they're scared of change. So was there anything that was difficult about that?
Ben: Uh, I don't know that we really had that much pushback. The hardest thing was you had our town had so many, um, vacant owners, like buildings that people bought at a tax sale. They did in,
Erin: in the eighties.
Ben: Yeah. They bid 20 bucks and they win it and you know, they, or they, you know, oh, if you'll pay the back taxes on this building, you get it. And it'd be people who didn't live here or people who used to live here and didn't live here anymore. Or, or some of them were people that lived here and they just would not, no matter what we said, they would not do anything to the building. Wouldn't sell the building. So
Erin: it's just rotting down.
Ben: And, uh, we, we lost several buildings through that. I mean, like there was a little bit of political pushback. Honestly, um, I would say we got more once we started getting success because then people started questioning how we were getting success you know, is the, are you getting, is the government giving you more? And for a long time, we getting any, any support, um, from the city government it was, you know, everything was off of the backs of volunteers, merchants and volunteers,
Erin: which was about 15 people.
Ben: Yeah. And it was, it was hard. It was really hard,
Erin: but now the government's very involved and onboard And proactive And so we're very lucky that New you know elections got us better Officials who cared a lot
Anne: what do you think if someone were to ask you about like okay if I'm looking at trying to revitalize my small town or a town that you know my family is from that sort of thing like what are the building blocks of a thriving small town
Ben: You gotta find the people. That's the biggest the the biggest thing. And I think that a lot of towns our group was guilty of this also like You think oh we just need to get some young creatives involved and.
Erin: Nope you need a lot more than that.
Ben: I I love young creatives. I married one Um I feel like at one point I might have been considered a a young creative person but um
Erin: you are a creative person. You're just not young anymore
Ben: that's what I'm saying used to be a at one point I was considered one Um but I mean you need you need lawyers who can help you figure out like
Erin: grant writing
Ben: grant writing and legal like make sure you're doing everything the right way You need need churches And you need churches teachers that are full of volunteers You need teachers schools
Erin: service organizations
Ben: service organizations
Erin: you need them all to care
Ben: You need everybody to be on your team because that's the only way That you can do it like so in making the show hometown takeover you know in the beginning there were a lot of producers giving ideas and then Erin and I came in we were like look if these people aren't sold out for this it nothing we do here will help and that's the thing is like you have to get everybody or as many people as possible on board you're not gonna be able to get everybody Um but that was the thing like
Erin: and a big spread not just one kind of people young creative people have a role and it is important
Ben: Sure
Erin: But they are not the ones who are gonna fix everything
Ben: They're the ones that are gonna make what
Erin: they make it look cool
Ben: they make it look cool. But it's gonna be like the lawyers doctors and the business owners. they're the ones that are going to make it cool.
Erin: And you have to have that one person who is incredibly well connected and knows everybody
Ben: The other thing another building block is actually figuring out what your town is. Not what it used to be. Not what you want it to be. What is this town? This was something that we struggled with
Erin: we're not college town.
Ben: Yeah. And like everybody loves Oxford, Mississippi. I love it. Everybody loves Starkville, Mississippi. Um, everybody loves, you know, Tuscaloosa, Alabama, chapel hill, North Carolina but we are not that okay.
Ben: We don't,
Erin: we have old people
Ben: that's right.
Erin: And young families
Ben: and young families,
Erin: and that's all have. So you gotta cater to those people.I think you gotta own be a niche. Every town, every small town in America, figure out what your niche market is really really be amazing for that group of people. If you don't,
Ben: if you don't have a niche, then make one up
Anne: No totally
Ben: that is the biggest, like
Erin: fake it until you make it,
Ben: you fake it and you tell people it's a thing. I read about a town this week that, that they have, like the biggest of everything, like they have the, the world's biggest, you know, frying pan, and it became a thing and they started making all right, what else could we come up with? And so now, They're that town.
Erin: Whatever it takes
Ben: and people go there and they they eat at the restaurants and they shop at the stores and they fill their car up with gas and then they move on to the next town.
Anne: Yeah So you know there's this myth I think when people who don't live in a small town, when they're thinking about moving they're like I'm gonna show up and everyone there is gonna be so invested in their community and it's gonna be great. And I think that sometimes we need to think more about. Encourages people to become, you know, invested in their communities. So what do you find is the kind of secret ingredient that gets people looking outside of their own immediate family to say, like, I wanna be part of something bigger ?
Erin: I think They see other people doing it and having a lot of fun. And then that makes people wanna be a part of it. The United States of America. We were United by beliefs or, or feelings or patriotism or something. I think we've become so divided that people are craving
Ben: connection,
Erin: connection, and unification.
Ben: And that's how those are. Those are that sound trite and cheesy, but they're not like they're, they're buzzwords for a reason.
Erin: people wanna feel like they belong somewhere
[MIDROLL]
AD BREAK CUE
Anne: sometimes people think that community building is only fun Right? It's like only glamorous or
Erin: It's really freaking hard.
Anne: 100% of the time. And some of it's just like showing up to the meeting and sitting there and like, like I'm kind of annoyed by this person but I've known her for 20 years and she's just part of this and that she's always too and like, we're doing the cleanup, you know, like we are, we're putting away the tables afterwards Like we're doing that work
Erin: we're all working together for the common good.
Ben: Okay. So talking about like from a team standpoint, There were people on my team who I absolutely hated, like despised could not stand, but if a fight broke out in a game, or if this happened before a fight broke out one weekend at a, a mall, and the fact that one of that, well, here we go. I'm getting in a fight now you you're a part of this thing. together And that's the way it is in a small town. Like you,
Erin: that's why we love living in a small town
Ben: yeah don't be mean to my neighbor You know I'll talk bad about 'em to my other neighbor but
Anne: What is a misconception that people have about small towns just generally that You wish you could correct? Because mine is that like, sometimes it's like, do you ride horses? Like the things people believe sometimes just blows me away. Do you have the internet ?
Erin: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. We have all Those
Erin: We we actually do have the internet. So you know, contrary to what you might believe about us right now. We have shoes and teeth in Mississippi and internet. Yeah, - I think one of the big misconceptions is that. It's Podunk and it's backwards. There are Podunk and backwards people in every state, every single square inch of this country. So this is one, oh, it's not like a small town problem.
Ben: being from south Mississippi, I think that, the one, that hits the hardest that, you know, we are racist prejudiced or whatever that is a pandemic that spans the globe.
Erin: Small town, America has this really rich and flavorful story to tell, and we have to work extra hard to combat the stereotypes that people have already placed on small town America.
Ben: So like Laurel, a lot of people, you know what, what's the nightlife like? Like, well, restaurant stays open till seven. uh, I think the movie theater is showing a movie. The last movie airs at 8. So uh, we were, filming the Christmas movie last week. And so you had all these people who either were from LA or from Atlanta. And they were like, okay, where do we need to go eat tonight? Uh, we want like a nice restaurant. And I was like, well, what do you think of as a nice restaurant? They were like, you know, like, White tablecloth
Erin: like a fine wine selection.
Ben: A nice wine selection. I was like,
Erin: Nope.
Ben: Uh, you're gonna wanna go to Jackson. um, that's an hour and a half drive. Uh, but it's,
Erin: if you don't need that and if you can be happy without that and find the richness in, you know, the friendships and doing things that really matter like bringing a town back to life. That's important work.
Ben: I did an interview this morning about our factory and somebody asked me, it was about our butcher block factory. They said what makes your cutting board better than someone elses? I was like Well, what do you mean? And they said, you know, what, what do you do to yours? That's different. And I said, nothing, it's a cutting board. I said, but the thing that
Erin: It's what does the cutting board do for Laurel?
Ben: That's that's basically what I said.
Erin: ask not what you're cutting board can do for you.
Ben: ask what it can do for your town.
Erin: Yeah.
Ben: Um, but that was the thing, as Isaid. The thing that makes ours special is that we took an abandoned building that had been hit by a tornado that was, you know, borderline condemned. It looked like a junkyard. We rehabbed it. We're still rehabbing it
Erin: and put 75 people to work.
Ben: And we we've got people there's a couple people in the neighborhood where the factory is in that walk to work. Like it's, you know, like it's the 1920s all over again. because they don't have a vehicle and they don't have a vehicle because they couldn't get a job. And now they have a job that pays really well, that you know, where we look after 'em and, um, there's one particular. And I, I don't wanna say who it is, but. Every time. One of the owners sees them walking to work. We stop and try to, you know, Hey, you need a ride and no, I'm good. I'm, you know, this is how I get my exercise in knowing that you're fixing to be on your feet all day working for our company. But, you know, they still don't. Uh, they, they want to get that walk in. And so. That's what makes company special is what, what I like to think about is, you know, all of the people that have a job cause of it here in this small town that didn't have to leave and go to another town or to a bigger city to get a job.
Anne: do you think that your daughters are going to want to live in Laurel
Ben: God I hope they do.
Erin: I don't know, you know, I hope that the girls will travel. I want them to see the world. I want them to see all of it .But I want them to be at home here. That would be a dream for us I think
Anne: Oh. And I think a lot of people wanna wanna come back to their hometowns, especially after they've left for a little bit. Right. But they don't know how to find a livelihood there. and I think the more that we can make those small towns, places you can, you can find a future
Erin: yeah
Ben: but also like through the internet and social media, and let's be honest, the, uh, COVID pandemic we've adapted as a people and learned like, oh,
Erin: I can have any career I want.
Ben: I can do this from anywhere. I saw a a I saw a a, a, video this week of a guy setting up a green screen on the beach, cuz he was supposed to be working. And he was, he was, he was, he was going to a meeting. He had his computer working and, um, I don't know, like, I feel like we've.
Erin: We've crossed some threshold now where careers are not what they used to be. It can be anything you want it to be.
Ben: Maybe it's some town you've never to but you visited it and you're like, oh my I wish I could live here. And oh wait, I can live here. Mm-hmm There's a 4,000 sq ft Queen Anne that's for sale with two acres for you know $250,000
Erin: Yeah
Anne: Yeah And I and people can make new families too cuz you know some people have families, robust families that they want to go back to And some people don't have that and something that approximates it in a town like
Ben: Yeah And that is, that is another thing. We have a sign, a poster that we sell in our shop that says. no strangers,
Erin: no secrets,
Ben: no secrets, because that's the big thing that we hear a lot about. Small towns is like, man, everybody knows your business,
Anne: Mhmm.
Ben: But it's also kind of like, if you ain't doing something you're not supposed to, who cares if they know your business, cuz they're looking out for you. And um, were, we were one time and my neighbor called me. At, uh, it was seven in the morning in North Carolina and I was like, oh shoot, it's 6:00 AM. Why is he calling me? And I answered. And it was because my dog had gotten out and our dog sitter wasn't there. and I said, man, I am 12 hours away right now I don't know what to do. And he was like, well, don't worry about it. Just tell the sitter to come and, uh,
Ben: come by here.
Ben: him, you know, we'll take care of him like, huh?
Erin: They fed him steak, leftovers.
Ben: Yeah. They fed, fed him leftover ribeye.
Ben: And
Erin: anyway, that wouldn't happen in a big city. Yeah. I feel like in a big city, that dog's gone,
Ben: I feel small towns were like, ah, that happened in a big city. You know, they'd, they'd call the pound or something. And I don't know that they would. I think that there's just this
Erin: we have more in common than
Ben: we have more in common than we have
Erin: than we have differences.
Anne: Talking to them, I wondered what would have happened had Erin and Ben not had the show Home Town? Would they be where they are now? Would they still be in Laurel? You probably won’t be surprised by their answer.
Erin: yeah for
Ben: sure We
Anne: yeah Yeah I think so too
Ben: That's the thing. There were a lot of things happening in Laurel. We were at the tipping point when, and we could, we could feel it in the town. Like we felt like, man, ball over the hill and it is gonna take. Right And it when HGTV quote unquote discovered us. And so it's hard looking back to know like, cuz we had been working at it for 10 years at that point and it was, you know, it was or almost 10 years. And so it. was something that we had been pushing and working towards. and that's not a, you know, it was a lot of work, like you said, it's not e people think it's gonna be fun and easy all the time. It was work. Those live lo festivals nearly killed us. The chili Cookoff the car shows. they were brutal work days for volunteers and we were right there at, and there are a lot of things that happened right around that time that people just assumed that HGTV came in and paid for. We have twinkle lights in downtown. Oh, HGTV, put these lights up for us. Like, no, we worked for two years raising money to put those up. Um, so it's, we feel like we would still be doing this. We feel like HGTV gave us
Erin: a great big push,
Ben: a big push, a second wind to go further. Um,
Erin: and boy, we're thankful for it
Ben: and we are extremely grateful for it. Um, but I still, I think that we would be doing the same matter. We'd be here. Yeah. Cause Erin and I we had already formed the company that became the Laurel mercantile.
Erin: Ben was building things for it and I was sourcing American made and vintage goods for it. So that's probably we'd be that. We'd have an online store selling it and he'd be building furniture. And here we'd be.
Ben: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. You'd be doing less press but you'd be doing the same thing.
Erin: I wouldn't be doing this podcast.
Ben: Yeah. I doubt we'd be doing this podcast.
THEME IN
Erin: Thanks y'all.
Ben: Alright, bye y'all.
Ben: Bye.
Anne: In episodes to come, you're going to hear more from people just like Erin and Ben, who are dedicated to the revitalization of their small towns, their journeys. Haven't always been easy and they'll tell us about what's been bad and awkward, but also tell us what it makes it ultimately worth it. We'll also hear from people who have been thinking about leaving the big. What's tempting them and what's holding them back.
Anne: Townsizing is produced by Neon Hum Media for HGTV. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on apple podcasts.
Until next time, I’m Anne Helen Petersen.
THEME OUT